Vampire crabs keep dying

[Ray butts]

Hi all
First of all i want to apologize for writing this in english - im belgian and i dont speak or write german.
About 2 months ago i started with a crab tank. Did some research first on their requirements and got 8 red vampire crabs. However - they started to die rather soon. As it was assumed it was trough desease I got new ones from the store (being related to the owners helped :p) but the problem remains. I lost now 11 crabs in total and it hurts so much losing each and everyone of them cause i tried everything to make them feel as good as possible. They get special crab food, dried shrimp, squid bone, crusta citine, mosquito larve and i tried to feed them tomato and carrot on occasion.
The water values have been tested twice and each time they give better result then that of the store
Totale Hardheid: Gh: 18°dH
Carbon: Kh: 12°dH
acid: pH: 7,63
Ammoniak: NH4-: 0mg/l
Nitriet: NO2: 0mg/l
Nitrate: NO3: 5mg/l
Nitrogen: CO2: 15mg/l
Oxygen: O2: 5mg/l
phosphate: PO4: 1mg/l
Conductivity: µs: 918µs
Iron: Fe: 1mg/l
Chlorine: Cl: 0mg/l

I have a timer set that enables a light and a waterpump to go active for 6 hours. Temparture remains between 20° and 25°

Terrarium composition is about 90% land and 10% water with about 20% of the land area swamplike - gives them wet legs but they can easely stand above it. Vegitation consists of moss out of the local forest, swamp plants (anubis nana) and mangrove wood. Other animals have been recently added some woodlouse and some alge slugs (dunno the english word)

Could somebody plz help. I really love these animals and i dont know wat is going wrong.

[Krabbert]

Hey Ray.
First of all: Welcome to the Panzerwelten-Forum.
It´s no problem to write in english, you will always find somebody who is able to help you - even in english
I´m not familiar with the vampires, but it seems there is a general problem. All you told us about your tank seems fine to me.
So one question: did you put the plants into water before you put them into the tank? Thats very important, as many plants have fertilizers on them. So we normally put the plants into a bucket of water and keep them inside for about a week. Its important to exchange the water to get rid of possible poisons for crabs... you should try to wash all soil off of the roots of the plants. If you took the plants out of your nearby forest, make sure its not too close to a street.
If u feed vegetables, you have to remove the peel.
What soil or grounds do you have in your land-area?

I know it hurts to loose your pets...we all went through that. But sometimes the crabs are already "damaged" by stress, wrong habits in the zoo-shops etc.

[Ray butts]

Hey Ray.
First of all: Welcome to the Panzerwelten-Forum.
It´s no problem to write in english, you will always find somebody who is able to help you - even in english
I´m not familiar with the vampires, but it seems there is a general problem. All you told us about your tank seems fine to me.
So one question: did you put the plants into water before you put them into the tank? Thats very important, as many plants have fertilizers on them. So we normally put the plants into a bucket of water and keep them inside for about a week. Its important to exchange the water to get rid of possible poisons for crabs... you should try to wash all soil off of the roots of the plants. If you took the plants out of your nearby forest, make sure its not too close to a street.
If u feed vegetables, you have to remove the peel.
What soil or grounds do you have in your land-area?

I know it hurts to loose your pets...we all went through that. But sometimes the crabs are already "damaged" by stress, wrong habits in the zoo-shops etc.

The plants come from the local garden-center and where allready submerged in a big tank with water. However - i did clean them leaf by leaf before putting them into the tank. But i think i can rule that out as a possible cause of death because this specific plant was purchased between 2 populations. Yes, i forgot about that. The soil consists of a mixture of grind (for aquaria) and a rocky thing called scalaria. Its a neutral chemical rock of vulcanic origin specifly used for plants in aquariums. All rocks have been washed before use. I used a mixture so that the plants could grow on the soil and still be sticky (the grind) for the crabs to dig holes that didnt cave in. I also added some moss that grew on trees and the ground. Its far enough from the street to be free of polution but i still washed everything. Every rock and piece of wood has been boiled, every leaf and soil washed. The only thing i can think off would be stress - but then: wat causes stress to crabs?

[Ollie Mengedoht]

Welcome to Panzerwelten Ray - and don't worry, there is an English subforum for non-German speakers.

The plants come from the local garden-center and where allready submerged in a big tank with water. However - i did clean them leaf by leaf before putting them into the tank.

Hm, please read http://www.panzerwelten.de/forum/thread-1637.html

But i think i can rule that out as a possible cause of death because this specific plant was purchased between 2 populations.

I'm not quite sure I understand You correctly. You mean You bought the first "series" of crabs, they dies and then You inserted that plant? After that another series of crabs died?

Then the plant may not be the cause, but it would be a possibility since plants are mostly heavily fertilized (and mmost of the tiomes by copper - harmless to us but a killer for invertebrates).


There remains one main cause:

What causes stress to crabs?

Exactly, stress. Wild captives are caught out of their life, imported (often under very unsuitable conditions), transported again from the importer to a local shop and then again from the shop to someone's home, that IS a lot of stress for these tiny creatures. BUT it is unusual to lose that many beings as You did, so we should try to find a cause for that so that we maybe find a solution. ;-)

Please have a look at all the important threads in this subforum http://www.panzerwelten.de/forum/forum-48.html – even if it does not seem to fit Your problem. Maybe You still do find a little snitch regarding You and Your crabs.

For now, after a stressful day of updating the board software, that's it. Maybe tomorrow we'll find some answers…

[Ray butts]

Welcome to Panzerwelten Ray - and don't worry, there is an English subforum for non-German speakers.

The plants come from the local garden-center and where allready submerged in a big tank with water. However - i did clean them leaf by leaf before putting them into the tank.

Hm, please read http://www.panzerwelten.de/forum/thread-1637.html

But i think i can rule that out as a possible cause of death because this specific plant was purchased between 2 populations.

I'm not quite sure I understand You correctly. You mean You bought the first "series" of crabs, they dies and then You inserted that plant? After that another series of crabs died?

Then the plant may not be the cause, but it would be a possibility since plants are mostly heavily fertilized (and mmost of the tiomes by copper - harmless to us but a killer for invertebrates).


There remains one main cause:

What causes stress to crabs?

Exactly, stress. Wild captives are caught out of their life, imported (often under very unsuitable conditions), transported again from the importer to a local shop and then again from the shop to someone's home, that IS a lot of stress for these tiny creatures. BUT it is unusual to lose that many beings as You did, so we should try to find a cause for that so that we maybe find a solution. ;-)

Please have a look at all the important threads in this subforum http://www.panzerwelten.de/forum/forum-48.html – even if it does not seem to fit Your problem. Maybe You still do find a little snitch regarding You and Your crabs.

For now, after a stressful day of updating the board software, that's it. Maybe tomorrow we'll find some answers…

Ok - thank you! I will follow your advice regarding the plants carefully and i will check that thread-link again. Went trough it several times before allready.

However - i also decided to start anew cause the tank the petshop adviced is more suitable for water crabs then land crabs like the geosesarrma crab. This should remove any possible cause of death and any possible toxins in the old tank. Then i can clean out the old one thoroughly and put aple crabs in it. It may sound a bit drastic but if that wat it takes to keep them alive then thats wat im gonna do.

[Ray butts]

Urgent - i just got a new batch last week but it seems they are sick. 2 died last night. Bitter crab disease by the sympthoms. Is there a way to treat them?

[Ollie Mengedoht]

Unfortunately no. As told already the stress from import is big. What symptoms can You see?

[Ray butts]

Unfortunately no. As told already the stress from import is big. What symptoms can You see?

They still move their mouth. Little movement when i touch them. Otherwise they dont do a thing. No eating. They just lay on their belly. One even had its belly hatch open for a few moments while lying on its 'nose/eyes' over an edge.
Its strange though - the other day they where quite active, traveling around, even playing hide & seek when i wanted to take the first pics but yesterday barely any movement. Found the first 2 dead this morning

So, now i took them all out, put them on a scale with fresh water and a piece of food for each and then drained the tank of all water.
Gonna go to the store tomorrow and buy some medication from HS i saw last time and then hope it will help.

[Ollie Mengedoht]

Hi Ray,

medication? There is no medication for crabs. The probability with fish medication to harm the crabs is big. Their metabolisms are completely different!

That the crabs seem healthy one day and the very next day lethargic seems strange to me. That might (!) be an indication for a poisoning. Did they go into the water? Do You know how much copper and chlorine is in Your water?

[Ray butts]

Hi Ray,

medication? There is no medication for crabs. The probability with fish medication to harm the crabs is big. Their metabolisms are completely different!

That the crabs seem healthy one day and the very next day lethargic seems strange to me. That might (!) be an indication for a poisoning. Did they go into the water? Do You know how much copper and chlorine is in Your water?

The medication is designed to put good bacteria in the right dose into the water specifically for shrimp and related.

The water values are good. They are:
hardness: Gh: 18°dH
carbonare Hardness: Kh: 12°dH
aciddegree: pH: 7,63
Ammoniak: NH4-: 0mg/l
Nitriet: NO2: 0mg/l
Nitraat: NO3: 5mg/l
nitrogen: CO2: 15mg/l
oxygen: O2: 5mg/l
Fosfaat: PO4: 1mg/l
Geleidbaarheid: µs: 918µs
iron: Fe: 1mg/l
Chlorine: Cl: 0mg/l

[Ollie Mengedoht]

Hi Ray

Okay, that would not be called medication here but "starter bacteria" or anything like that but okay, then that is no problem. All fish medications are a problem for invertebrates.

Did all of the crabs get from tomato and carrot? Have You added anything else since the food list in Your very first post?

[Ray butts]

Yeah, the starter-bacteria was my *caugh* medication since i concluded that i had a parasite in the water i thoughd that a new dose of 'good' bacteria would restore the balance. Not really medication but it seemed to help. The last one responded quite well to the treatment and got back up and walked around quite active but it was too weak and when i left for work it fell of his rock and died.
No, none of the crabs got tomato since i tried it once and they didnt seem to like it. Carrots i used in my first batch but stopped since some of them died.

However. I got a nice update. I may have found the main cause of me being unable to hold crabs. Seems like the store where i bought them and had the water tested twice didnt do all the tests. The ones they neglected and you suggesed are in the local water. So, im doing all the tests again, myself this time and getting some toxivec from Sera. Im also redesigning my terrarium and will ask your opinion before i try again... I guilty though - i should have never taken the advice of someone who keeps geosesarma in a 3/4 watertank. Do you want me to make a new topic for that or keep posting in this one?

[Ollie Mengedoht]

Hi Ray,

okay *laugh*, let's get over with the medication.

You mean there is copper in the water? How much? Or what do You mean by "The ones …you suggested are in the local water"?

New thread… You have to know by Yourself. I would use this one I think… Hm, although, if designing a new tank… Decide yourself.

[Ray butts]

Hi Ray,

okay *laugh*, let's get over with the medication.

You mean there is copper in the water? How much? Or what do You mean by "The ones …you suggested are in the local water"?

New thread… You have to know by Yourself. I would use this one I think… Hm, although, if designing a new tank… Decide yourself.

The ones they neglected are indeed copper (wich is in the water) and also low oxygen. Still waiting on plants from the gardenshop to redo the test and get more complete and acurate result.

[Ollie Mengedoht]

Oxygen IS a little low, I saw that but since these crabs can go on land too it shouldn't matter.

You should test and tell the measurement of copper. For many invertebrates copper is a deadly poison in micrograms per litre, that is a millionth of a gram… Few tests can measure that low concentrations.

[Mr Crabs]

Hi Ray,

I had a similar problem. I got the advice also to test for copper, but i did not found a cheap test which shows up 1µg copper in 1L of water.
They told me to use Daphnia and I should describe how fast they die and their behaviour. But before you put the Daphnia into your fresh water do the water into a dish, which you have cleaned with much fresh water and let your testing water loosing its chlorine. The chlorine goes out by waiting some hours.
I hope you understand what I mean, else ask again


Kind regards

Immi

[Ray butts]

Hi Ray,

I had a similar problem. I got the advice also to test for copper, but i did not found a cheap test which shows up 1µg copper in 1L of water.
They told me to use Daphnia and I should describe how fast they die and their behaviour. But before you put the Daphnia into your fresh water do the water into a dish, which you have cleaned with much fresh water and let your testing water loosing its chlorine. The chlorine goes out by waiting some hours.
I hope you understand what I mean, else ask again


Kind regards

Immi

thx for the advice but i allready purchased the testcase of Sera. Using that now. Cost alot of money but its better then testing with animal-lives. http://foro.acuarios.es/attachments/area...t-sera.jpg

[Mr Crabs]

What amount of copper can this test shows u? they told me 1µg/L can cause problems...

[Ray butts]

What amount of copper can this test shows u? they told me 1µg/L can cause problems...

Pending on the color of the testwater it shows a polution of 0 to 2,0mg/l. As for the max dosis. According to my chart a dosage of 0.0 or below 0.3 mg/l is optimal. Starting of 0.3 you got problems. That is the max dosage. From 0.6 its lethal to slugs and other 'lower animals'

[Mr Crabs]

Hi,

thanks for the Info :-)

[Mr Crabs]

and what about your copper?

[Ray butts]

and what about your copper?

Havent tested it yet - but i assume it will be there as i cant trust the first one being done by the store. Anyway, im closing or marking this topic for closure and creating a new one for my new terrarium.